Lieutenant Ernest William Jones
Personal Details
- 159282 Lieutenant
- Ernest William Jones
- Bomb Disposal
- Royal Engineers
Son of Thomas and Mary Ann Jones: Husband of Kitty Jones of Toronto, Ontario, Canada.
Died on the 2nd December 1940. Aged 52.
Buried at Canford Cemetery, Bristol.
Section QQ Grave 309 B.
Photo taken by Tony Birch
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This is my grandfather who I never knew.
However Kitty his wife was a great old grandma. They had two daughters. Paula & Sylvia. Paula my mother also served in the Canadian Air force during the war.
I’m frustrated that the site Fishponds.org.uk which lists his name but it is incorrectly given as below.
JONES, Edward William (52) Lt. 159282, Royal Engineers. Of 56 Station Road, Shirehampton, Bristol. Son of Thomas and Mary Ann Jones. Husband of Kitty Jones of Toronto, Canada. Body removed to temporary mortuary at St.Peters.
Any comments regarding my grandfather are welcome
It is confusing that some places he is identified as Lieutenant and other places listed as Major.
Hi
checks I have been able to carry out so far confirm his rank as Lieutenant, no further details have come to light
Dear sir,
A few years ago we spoke. I hope you are well and still on board.
An interesting note. Part of my original query to you was why is my grandfather listed as Lieutenant in some places and Major in other. For example his grave says Lieutenant. I would appreciate your comments on the following data.
So what I have discovered I THINK, is that my grandfather was given the title Major posthumously. I’m not expert on this but I have discovered the Gazette which appears to be a place where various government announcements are published. Here is the record: https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/35052/supplement/469
it states the following:
The undermentioned to be Lts.: —
28th Nov. 1940: —
Maj. Ernest William JONES (159282).
Again I’m no expert but I think this means that he was promoted to Major. And I wonder why was he listed as a Lieutenant on his grave. It is also interesting to note that he was Promoted if that is what this is on Nov 28 a few days before his death. Was this a real promotion, in other words he was promoted not because he was killed, or was it ceremonial because he was killed but for propriety/respect (or what ever you want to call it ) they back dated the date before his death.
Can you provide any insights? Or can you tell me where I may ask this question.
Regards
Grandson of Ernest W. Jones.
PS it also appears that he served in WW1. Which I did know before although dont know anything about that part of his service. See here .. https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D3139789
Hi
Interesting and something I will look into, wont be quick as have quite a list of actions to carry out. I do request in the order I receive them.
What I can say is that he wouldn’t have been promoted for ceremonial reasons or for propriety or respect. If as his grave stone says he was a Lieutenant, he wouldn’t have been promoted to Major straight away he would have been promoted to Captain first.
Pete
Hi Colin.
Have looked into this and can see where the confusion is. The London Gazette has made an error by putting Maj in front of his name. He was promoted to Lieutenant from 2 Lieutenant on the 28 November 1940. His rank of Lt is backed by his Commonwealth War Graves entry and rank on his headstone. I also found a couple of entry’s on Forces War Records also showing his rank as Lieutenant.
Dear sir,
I thank you for your quick response and research. It is an odd thing I know to be doing all this research that happened so far in the past. My grandfather who I never knew, was always an honoured person in our family. When “single parents” was not a recognised term then until more modern times, that’s what my grandmother and her two children were. Of course there were 1000s of them after the war. They survived and got on with life, reasonably successfully. I always felt sorry for my grandmother who persevered. And in a foreign country (Canada now). Few to console her.
It is a sad thing that just before his death he was promoted. That is the The Fog of War I suppose. Added to that as you have said the mistake in the Gazette. it’s all a bit of a muddle to look at it. And I was trying to make sense of coincidences and mistakes.
I too have been doing some research, or should say asked a few questions on Reddit WW2.
One very helpful individual (former military person) found when my grandfather became 2nd Lieutenant which you may have found also.
https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/29055/page/1026
Then to Captain here in 1918.
https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/30964/supplement/12454
He could NOT find the place where Ernest became Major. Maybe what you are saying is he never was? Perhaps this rumour of him being Major came from this one mistake. it did seem odd to me that he was promoted to Lieutenant when he was a Major. So are you saying that he was never Major?
Regards
PS. Sorry to update this.
So here is a link showing him in Canada being called Major.
This is NOT to dispute you research in anyway but its interesting how things get a little confusing. Somewhere along the line, they called him major and of course who is going to say to a widow, “Well he really was not”. Maybe my grandmother just didn’t know??
Scroll, down and look at the newspaper headings.
https://www.veterans.gc.ca/en/remembrance/memorials/canadian-virtual-war-memorial/detail/2450711
Regards
The information the newspaper clippings have is incorrect, his rank at time of death was Lieutenant, again I believe they have mix matched info from WW1 and WW2. At the time I can see there would have been lots of issues over sharing of information. Also he wouldn’t have been a Director or in charge of 5 camps. As a Lieutenant he would have been in charge of one or two Sections.
So yet another change. My desire is not to prolong this.
Accept for the fact that data seem so dynamic. The same individual on Reddit I mentioned previously has found possibly where Ernest became a Major. Here is the link and his explanation. Albeit I’m still confused.
Here are his comments I quote:
— Start of quote.
War Office, 12th January, 1922
TERRITORIAL ARMY
The undermentioned Officers relinquish their commissions, 30th September 1921, and retain their rank except where otherwise stated:
CORPS OF ROYAL ENGINEERS – 54th (East Anglian) Divisional Engineers Field Companies
Lt. E. W. Jones, and is granted the rank of Major
https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/32575/supplement/363
Basically at the time of discharge (relinquishing his commission) he was a substantive Lieutenant holding the acting rank of Captain – upon discharge he was rewarded for his service by granting him the authority to refer to himself as Major (looking at the LG page he was the only one of his peers afforded that honour – the rest either remaining at Lieutenant or granted as Captain)
(I can only presume that he stayed in France doing reconstruction work, albeit no longer holding a commission if he was still abroad in November 1922)
——- end of quote
I was quite happy to accept the mistake in The Gazette. I have often seen things recorded in my research of my family. But then this helpful person found this.
Can you tell me what your thoughts are on this new titbit.
Sorry to be a bother.
Regards
Hi Colin
Think a fundamental issue over this is that its getting confusing between two different periods of service ie WW1 and WW2.
In WW2 he was a Lieutenant, his WW1 service is of no relevance to this.
I will e mail you with further details, explaining how the rank structure worked through both periods and other information.
WW1 if only holding the Acting rank of Captain he wouldnt have been made up to Major, is my understanding.
the London Gazette links are not working, do you know what service number he had in WW1 as it will be different to his WW2 Number
Give me a couple of days and I will e mail you
Hi Colin
the best avenue to follow is to request his Service Records via this link https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/requests-for-personal-data-and-service-records Happy to look over them if you do
Pete
Thank you for your continued support. Yes I understand I think what you are saying. WW1 and WW2 are somewhat separate entities. And should be view that way.
I have realised that despite my parents both serving and other family members including my grandfather, I know little about military things, levels etc. Sometimes I feel ashamed of this. But also I view it with pride that that is what my parents and other family members faught and died for. That we don’t need to know that much. So its a bit of mixed emotions. However I can show them respect and advertise their achievements.
I have gone to the site you suggested and submitted a form for my grandfathers ww2 records. Im unclear if they will also provide his ww1 records, which would be interesting. I may have to submit another request for that??? Not sure.
Thank you for the helpful suggestion. It says it can take up to a year. Although I will say. His ww2 records (if not destroyed in the big fire they had) should be easy to find. I gave them, Birth/Regimental number all info they asked for.
We will wait and be patient.
Thanks again for your help.
Regards
Colin
Colin
It can be confusing especially if not from a ,military background. Will break it all down for you in a email in the next couple of days
Pete